Solar Power
Helping People off the Fence

What is The BIg Deal?

As the battle rages over Guantanamo Bay, I have to ask, what is the big deal if Gitmo stays open? Why should Gitmo be closed? Any terrorists moved is being moved out of a very secure prison with a perfect record as far as escapes go. Even if they do escape, they still have to cross the Caribbean and avoid the Coast Guard to get anywhere. Moving the terrorists means either putting them inside the US-in a prison that may or may not be as secure as a Gitmo and where they could reek havoc and kill many if they escape into our towns and cities-or we could move them into a foreign nation,-where we have little control over what happens to them and where security could be lax-but their aren’t many foreign nations stupid enough to want  to house terrorists.

The main reason for closing Guantanamo Bay is that many believe it is a recruiting tool for terrorists. I find that ridiculous. Anyone smart enough to set up a network like Al Qaeda is smart enough to use effective propaganda. It doesn’t matter if we gave captured terrorists penthouse suites, terrorist leaders would just lie. Any atrocities we commit will be exaggerated and any kindnesses we have shown will be ignored (somewhat like what the media did to Bush). Terrorists either won’t expect much better than what they do to their prisoners. Also these terrorists are religiously motivated; they aren’t fighting because of human rights violations, they are fighting because they have been called to subjugate the Great Satan (us) and the Little Satan (Israel). They hate us because we support Israel, whom they hate because they control the Holy City, have beaten back Muslim forces several times, and control land that was at one time under Muslim control (Any land once under control of Islam, must always be under the control of Islam).

The real reason people are trying to close Gitmo is politics, its about image and nothing more. The kind, benevolent Democrats stop the cruel, cowboy Republicans and begin the peace process with our enemies who attacked because they were alienated by Bush. The problem is, our enemies don’t want peace. As the Koran states, the only reason for a ceasefire is to prepare for the next battle.

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11 Responses to “What is The BIg Deal?”

  1. A) No one escapes from supermax prisons

    B) Terrorist acts are illegal. People who do illegal things are given a trial, and if found guilty, sent to jail. But for some reason, you think that these criminals are fundamentally different. By your logic, Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber should be shipped off to Gitmo

    C) You live in a democracy. You tell everyone else in the world how great democracy is and that they should be democratic too. But then when you find that democracy inconvenient, you break the rules. Hmmm… a little hypocritical ain’t it? Why don’t you go and find yourselves a nice little dictator and build him a palace?

    D) I live in the Middle East and I can confirm, without a doubt, that Gitmo is the Number 1 reason why people hate America. Forget the Great Satan name-calling, your leaders have said worse about other governments. Gitmo is a stain on your country that will take years to erase. Honestly, the hate is palpable.

    E) Don’t take verses from the Qur’an out of context. It makes you sound like an inbred bigot.

  2. I can’t begin to catalog just how much is wrong with this piece.

    The “worst of the worst” died on 9/11 in the pilot seats of the planes they crashed into our buildings. Everyone else at Gitmo pales in comparison to Mo Atta and his band of merry men.

    And you know what Solar? We’ve got some REALLY sick bastards locked up in high security prisons in this country right now. Dudes who would probably scare the crap out of most Gitmo detainees This idea that somehow Gitmo is a more secure facility than our best prisons is absolutely absurd.

    You may have a point that Al Quada operatives hardly need Gitmo as their lone recruiting mechanism. There are lots of ways they can pull impressionable young Muslims into their cause. I’m more interested in what Gitmo (or the symbolism of Gitmo) says to our allies. Are we hypocrites? Do we oppose torture or don’t we? You can’t separate Gitmo the facility from what goes on there. Now, if we close Gitmo and move everybody to, let’s say, Montana and then start torturing them there, then it has indeed been a fruitless exercise.

    Gitmo matters. Torture matters. Our morals are not judged by what we do in peacetime. They are judged by what we do in war, what we do when we are up against it. The time for taking the low road should come to an end. What remains unsettling is Obama’s hesitancy to truly break from the policies of Bush. In reality he is not making a clean break, which should make you and your fellow conservatives very happy.

    • First of all Rutherford, I don’t agree that waterboarding is torture. But that is another argument.

      We do have some very bad people in our max security prisons, but those people are not only individuals, they do not have the motivation that terrorists have. Terrorists are willing to die if they think they can succeed in escaping. The criminals in US prisons have no motivation great enough to risk sure death.

      I believe that the military can provide more security than law enforcement. I suppose I could be wrong.

      I’m more interested in what Gitmo (or the symbolism of Gitmo) says to our allies.

      So closing Gitmo is more symbolic than practical? I would agree with that. Its all politics.

  3. Well R I don’t share your opinion of the piece and actually would say that the post and your comment gel.
    As others on the WPBA tag have noted (Marc at IOEOTO) the US has many max security prisons that could hold the detainees. I think what is missed here is that the detainees are not law enforcement arrestees.
    You are both right on the symbolism/political reasoning behind Gitmo closure. The Realpolitik of it though is that we really don’t want the detainees to have the representation access (legal and media) that detention on US soil provides. Also Gitmo allows for cleared detainees that are refused by their home nations to stay in limbo as opposed to on the streets of the detainers.

  4. Actually, the single biggest reason, in my mind, to close Gitmo is that the location has been used as an excuse to exempt ourselves from our own laws.

    “It’s not on US soil, so US laws don’t apply” was the excuse used by the Bush administration. Liberals, libertarians, Constitutional literalists, and any real conservatives that might exist out there in the country were all disgusted by that logic.

    Federal Supermax prisons, by the way, also have perfect records for escapes. And they’ve been doing it longer, with more prisoners, than Gitmo has. So that argument is completely vacant.

    If we want to play out the advantage of the sea, then … well, … why not just have the hypothetical escaped terrorist make contact with Cuba (you know, the island on which we based the prison?). I’m sure that the Castros would love to help.

  5. So what would happen if Guantanamo Bay closes and all the prisoners go elsewhere? What changes?

    Will terrorists stop attacking us?

    Will Europe like us better?

  6. First of all Rutherford, I don’t agree that waterboarding is torture. But that is another argument.

    OK, first we need to lay this foolishness to rest. It is clear that until you are waterboarded yourself, your mind won’t change. Other conservatives like Christopher Hitchens and Mancow the radio host, have undergone the procedure and emerged from it with a very different opinion from yours. (By the way, I’ve been meaning to post that video on my blog for several days now so thanks for giving me the opportunity here.)

    Second, waterboarding is not the only thing that went on at Gitmo. Next to water, sleep is the most essential life sustaining “nourishment” we have. Sleep deprivation is torture. Exposure to extreme temperature is torture. These were all done. So toss out waterboarding and you’ve still got torture.

    Your terrorist willing to die argument seems a bit oxymoronic. If they will risk “sure death” to escape, the end result will be death and they won’t escape, while their non-terrorist prison-mates will laugh their asses off at their foolhardiness.

    As conservatives continue to reach for straws, I’ve heard another new nutty theory. The terrorist will convert our God-fearing convicts to Islam and a prison revolt will result. What nonsense! Do you know what happens to pedophiles in prison? Even deranged criminals have a “code” and I dare say terrorists killing Americans violates that code. Detainees will have to kept in solitary, not to protect the inmates but to protect the detainees!

    • Sleep deprivation is torture. Exposure to extreme temperature is torture. These were all done. So toss out waterboarding and you’ve still got torture.

      So when we move the terrorists, how is that changed? If we would close Gitmo, does it erase these “wrongs” (I’ll argue about whether or not waterboarding and sleep deprivation is torture in a later post) How will closing Gitmo help us? What do you want?

      • I think you’re approaching this debate from entirely opposite ends of the spectrum. On the one hand, Solar appears to be saying that there’s no point in trying to make “terrorists” like America, because they never will. On the other hand, Rutherford, you seem to take the approach that reconciliation can be achieved.

        If, you accept that America will always be enemy number 1, then I suppose that it makes perfect sense to keep Gitmo open. In fact, you’d be better off re-opening all the black sites across Europe and North Africa. After all, detainees held in those locations were under even less scrutiny than the detainees at Gitmo.

        However, it’s worth bearing in mind that America had never been attacked before 2001. In many places, America was not despised as it is now. But the utter hypocrisy of invading countries supposedly in defense of human rights and then kidnapping people and leaving them to rot in a torturous prison has galvanized public opinion against America. Do people in the Middle East appreciate the fact that their governments are not accountable to the rule of law? No. Do they approve of their governments holding people without trial and torturing them in prisons? No. But they certainly don’t see the American system as anything worth emulating. If anything, it’s worse because it’s based on lies. As horrible as their governments are, at least their honest about it.

        You want perpetual war? Keep Gitmo open. You want peace? Close it.

  7. Shocked,
    Reconciliation is possible, but its a long way off. Radical Islam is like a slightly more intelligent yet just as insane WWII Japan. Japan was willing to send armies of citizens armed with spears at invading forces, Radical Islam is prepared to do worse.

    You also talk like America is to blame for the 9/11 attacks. As if we (or perhaps we are blaming Bush again) did something recently to incite this violence. Shocked, you were wrong when you said America had never been attacked before 2001. WE’ve been attacked since the early 1980’s, 9/11 was just the most prominent and successful.

    Another thing to point out. Only three detainees were ever waterboarded. One masterminded 9/11; one played a key role in the Cole bombing (which happened before 9/11); and the other played a small role in 9/11. Only three out of however many terrorists detained have experienced waterboarding. As for rotting in these prisons, Gitmo is a very nice prison. If they close, someone will probably make it into a hotel or resort someday. As for being their indefinitely, we don’t have a lot of options. Releasing them is a bad idea (as we have found out) and executing them is a bad idea (and liberals complain now…). Their is a reason Middle East nations aren’t demanding their citizens back.


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